- Posts: 4
- Thank you received: 0
Thermal Expansion
- Mukhtar
-
Topic Author - Offline
- New Member
-
Less More
11 years 4 months ago - 11 years 4 months ago #8248 by Mukhtar
Thermal Expansion was created by Mukhtar
Hi everybody, My name is Mukhtar and I am currently working as Field Piping Mechanical Engineer in far north of Russia. On site we Have issue with thermal expansion would like to ask for your advice.
We have 8†Production and 4†Test Manifolds/Header with length of 160 m.(roughly).Half of it was previously installed and worked okay. But recently We have extended it- added second half.( roughly 80 m). In the middle of manifold there is thermal expansion loop ( on existing part) .Anchor support was also considered and designed. But for some reasons construction guys did not install pipe stops to new part of pipework. And Now we have expansion issue. Expansion at the end of manifold/pipe rack is 25 mm ..
Both of headers are thermal insulated and operation temperature as per design is + 35 deg. C. Ambient temperature in now is -23 ( minus) degree C. ( start up was week ago and we had different temp. from -10 to -32 therefore considering -23 as middle temp). In summer +20 degree.
So my question is - Is there any way to prevent Thermal expansion? Company who did stress calculation did not consider additional Thermal Loop, and construction were missed to install Anchor support and to add this support need to shut down all system which is not acceptable by operations.
We can’t touch pipes . Therefore need to find something else.
Looking forward for your response
Thank you .
We have 8†Production and 4†Test Manifolds/Header with length of 160 m.(roughly).Half of it was previously installed and worked okay. But recently We have extended it- added second half.( roughly 80 m). In the middle of manifold there is thermal expansion loop ( on existing part) .Anchor support was also considered and designed. But for some reasons construction guys did not install pipe stops to new part of pipework. And Now we have expansion issue. Expansion at the end of manifold/pipe rack is 25 mm ..
Both of headers are thermal insulated and operation temperature as per design is + 35 deg. C. Ambient temperature in now is -23 ( minus) degree C. ( start up was week ago and we had different temp. from -10 to -32 therefore considering -23 as middle temp). In summer +20 degree.
So my question is - Is there any way to prevent Thermal expansion? Company who did stress calculation did not consider additional Thermal Loop, and construction were missed to install Anchor support and to add this support need to shut down all system which is not acceptable by operations.
We can’t touch pipes . Therefore need to find something else.
Looking forward for your response
Thank you .
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- Jop
-
- Offline
- Moderator
-
Less More
- Posts: 1053
- Thank you received: 14
11 years 4 months ago - 11 years 4 months ago #6699 by Jop
Do it once and Do it Right
Replied by Jop on topic Re: Thermal Expansion
Is there any way to prevent Thermal expansion?
- "No! There is no way to prevent thermal expansion"
Company who did stress calculation did not consider additional Thermal Loop. (Engineering Error #1)
Construction (did not) install (the) Anchor support (Construction Error #1)
to add this support (we) need to shut down all systems (but this) is not acceptable by operations. (Client decision)
We can’t touch pipes. (Client decision)
Therefore need to find something else.
- (No, there is only the following)
Step 1, You did not make it clear as to who you are in the scheme of things here. But, you need to make sure everyone in your company/organization is fully aware of the situation and what the ramifications would be if you do nothing or do something else wrong.
Step 2, Then the top management of your company needs to make the upper management of the Client Organization fully aware of the problem.
Step 3, The Client then needs to call a meeting with the Engineering Company, The Constructor, the Fabricator/Installer and a Third Party Inspection Company to inform everyone that the current situation is unacceptable and this is what is going to happen:
- The Engineering Company shall redesign the manifold properly at their own expense.
- The Construction Company shall install the properly engineered and designed Anchor support at their expense.
- The Piping Fabricator and Installer shall fabricate and install the new/modified piping and back charge all costs to the Engineering Company.
- The Third Party Inspector shall be made fully aware of all aspects of the situation and the correction plan. They shall then inspect all aspects of the Engineering, Design, Fabrication and Installation of the revised piping and support installation. The Third Party's costs and fees shall to be back charged to the Engineering Company.
- The Client shall evaluate the loss of revenue/profits during the down time and back charge Engineering Company.
- In the future maybe everyone will follow this advice :
"Do it once and Do it Right"
- "No! There is no way to prevent thermal expansion"
Company who did stress calculation did not consider additional Thermal Loop. (Engineering Error #1)
Construction (did not) install (the) Anchor support (Construction Error #1)
to add this support (we) need to shut down all systems (but this) is not acceptable by operations. (Client decision)
We can’t touch pipes. (Client decision)
Therefore need to find something else.
- (No, there is only the following)
Step 1, You did not make it clear as to who you are in the scheme of things here. But, you need to make sure everyone in your company/organization is fully aware of the situation and what the ramifications would be if you do nothing or do something else wrong.
Step 2, Then the top management of your company needs to make the upper management of the Client Organization fully aware of the problem.
Step 3, The Client then needs to call a meeting with the Engineering Company, The Constructor, the Fabricator/Installer and a Third Party Inspection Company to inform everyone that the current situation is unacceptable and this is what is going to happen:
- The Engineering Company shall redesign the manifold properly at their own expense.
- The Construction Company shall install the properly engineered and designed Anchor support at their expense.
- The Piping Fabricator and Installer shall fabricate and install the new/modified piping and back charge all costs to the Engineering Company.
- The Third Party Inspector shall be made fully aware of all aspects of the situation and the correction plan. They shall then inspect all aspects of the Engineering, Design, Fabrication and Installation of the revised piping and support installation. The Third Party's costs and fees shall to be back charged to the Engineering Company.
- The Client shall evaluate the loss of revenue/profits during the down time and back charge Engineering Company.
- In the future maybe everyone will follow this advice :
"Do it once and Do it Right"
Do it once and Do it Right
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- Mukhtar
- Topic Author
- Offline
- New Member
-
Less More
- Posts: 4
- Thank you received: 0
11 years 4 months ago - 11 years 4 months ago #6700 by Mukhtar
Replied by Mukhtar on topic Re: Thermal Expansion
Jop,
Thank you very much for your response. I understand what you saying. The problem is that the company who did initial design of manifold did not completed it properly ( due cancelled contract) and did not handed over properly to new company.- 1 gap. And some weak supervision during installation.
Thank you very much for your response. I understand what you saying. The problem is that the company who did initial design of manifold did not completed it properly ( due cancelled contract) and did not handed over properly to new company.- 1 gap. And some weak supervision during installation.
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- Jop
-
- Offline
- Moderator
-
Less More
- Posts: 1053
- Thank you received: 14
11 years 4 months ago - 11 years 4 months ago #6701 by Jop
Do it once and Do it Right
Replied by Jop on topic Re: Thermal Expansion
As I said before.
"Then the top management of your company needs to make the upper management of the Client Organization fully aware of the problem."
Then the Client needs to call in the lawyers.
"Then the top management of your company needs to make the upper management of the Client Organization fully aware of the problem."
Then the Client needs to call in the lawyers.
Do it once and Do it Right
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- 11echo
-
- Offline
- Platinum Member
-
Less More
- Posts: 351
- Thank you received: 5
11 years 4 months ago - 11 years 4 months ago #6702 by 11echo
Replied by 11echo on topic Re: Thermal Expansion
Your description is abit confusing to me, any chance you could post a sketch of this piping (with support locations)??
...When you say "We can’t touch pipes" ...do you mean you can't shut the line down for modifications? BUT IF you can modify the line without shutting it down that's ok? ...IF that's the case I'd look at using a camp-on shoe (heavy duty fabrication) and weld directional stubs on the bottom of the shoe on either side of the support where there WAS going to be an anchor. IF the shoe is heavy duty enough it might be able to buck the thermo movement enough to eliminate it (direct it to the expansion loop) . Bottom-line it wouldn't be major work or cost to try, and it "might" work. Only other issue it would require removal of insulation in that area …but if it did worked insulation could be added later to encase the shoe addition! …Good Luck!
...When you say "We can’t touch pipes" ...do you mean you can't shut the line down for modifications? BUT IF you can modify the line without shutting it down that's ok? ...IF that's the case I'd look at using a camp-on shoe (heavy duty fabrication) and weld directional stubs on the bottom of the shoe on either side of the support where there WAS going to be an anchor. IF the shoe is heavy duty enough it might be able to buck the thermo movement enough to eliminate it (direct it to the expansion loop) . Bottom-line it wouldn't be major work or cost to try, and it "might" work. Only other issue it would require removal of insulation in that area …but if it did worked insulation could be added later to encase the shoe addition! …Good Luck!
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- Mukhtar
- Topic Author
- Offline
- New Member
-
Less More
- Posts: 4
- Thank you received: 0
11 years 4 months ago - 11 years 4 months ago #6703 by Mukhtar
Yes, we can not shut down manifold and to do modification to it.We can remove insulation but can not do any welding activities.
All support types are clamped , support which was designed to be -anchor support- has shoe guide and stop welded to shoe (stop) and to Structural section (guide). According PS standard which we use clamp itself also should be welded to parent pipe. Welding of clamped shoe to pipe was missed during construction...
Replied by Mukhtar on topic Re: Thermal Expansion
Your description is abit confusing to me, any chance you could post a sketch of this piping (with support locations)??
...When you say "We can’t touch pipes" ...do you mean you can't shut the line down for modifications? BUT IF you can modify the line without shutting it down that's ok? ...IF that's the case I'd look at using a camp-on shoe (heavy duty fabrication) and weld directional stubs on the bottom of the shoe on either side of the support where there WAS going to be an anchor. IF the shoe is heavy duty enough it might be able to buck the thermo movement enough to eliminate it (direct it to the expansion loop) . Bottom-line it wouldn't be major work or cost to try, and it "might" work. Only other issue it would require removal of insulation in that area …but if it did worked insulation could be added later to encase the shoe addition! …Good Luck!
Yes, we can not shut down manifold and to do modification to it.We can remove insulation but can not do any welding activities.
All support types are clamped , support which was designed to be -anchor support- has shoe guide and stop welded to shoe (stop) and to Structural section (guide). According PS standard which we use clamp itself also should be welded to parent pipe. Welding of clamped shoe to pipe was missed during construction...
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
Moderators: Jop
Time to create page: 0.262 seconds
